Richard D. Bartlett – "Well in other news, I had a Big Thought (the start of one); maybe you'd like to ponder it… it's one of those things you might like to ponder."
Aaron J. Stewart – "Indubitably".
RDB – "Okay, creation vs. evolution right (and anything else on that spectrum) - neither of these theories shed any light on what happened the day before day zero … because we can't shed light on it because it is so far outside of our experience and capability. So what's the argument about? Who cares if we came from the breath of God or from monkeys? The journey seems to be almost entirely irrelevant, its the departure point that matters. (I’m not communicating very well I'm afraid.)"
AJS – "People see different departure points as a consequence of taking different journeys, i.e., the story you tell matters to the outcome and the way people live it."
RDB – "Well take the evolution point of view: before the big bang (etc) there was... nothing really... hard to say… or the creation point of view: before creation there was... something to do with God but nothing really... hard to say."
AJS – "Yeah but history – i.e. the bit we can tell - is a story, and people live stories."
RDB – "what I'm getting at is that when it comes down to it, there is some time in our past that we absolutely cannot fathom, regardless of how you look at it. That's why God's God and we are dudes. Which makes the creation story slightly pointless for me. Like, so what? Okay we magicked onto earth. Sweet. Bonus. I don’t see what difference it makes. But what I'm really getting at: when you apply that premise (that there are unfathomable things) to the future... I don’t particularly believe that there is any continuity from this life to the next - purely because it is so far out of our understanding."
AJS – "Afraid I'm not following your jihad… by 'continuity' do you mean 'reducible to consistent explanation?'"
RDB – "Not really, I mean how can the earthly me be punished for earthly sins in hell? Because when the earthly me gets to hell, it will be unrecognizable! Okay, the story goes, if you're good, you die and go to heaven, if you're bad you die and go to hell. But in what sense is that You in heaven the same you on earth?"
AJS – "Ah well you see that problem is solved by the eternal immaterial soul. Big ups for the floaty soul thingy. SOUL, brother, that's your answer... or at least it has been for 2000 years (Greek soul, that is)."
RDB - "Okay so there are some souls in heaven and some in hell. So why should I give two shits if I'm in one or the other? If someone has to go to hell, why not me?"
AJS – "Are you seriously asking? That sounds like an 'uh-oh, he's cracked' question."
RDB – "I've been thinking about this for a while, its not like I woke up a Satanist."
AJS - "Personally I don't believe in hell. I believe that people progressively cease to be human as they draw away from the image of God, and the end-point of that is complete cessation of being."
RDB – "That doesn't sound so bad. There's a line in Jude that says, "for them is reserved the darkness and the blackness forever" (basically). Which would be a sort of proof text I guess?"
AJS – "Yep, maybe."
RDB – "Well if Richard D. Bartlett were kept in blackness and darkness forever, he would cease to be Richard D. Bartlett."
AJS – "Exactly, he would in fact cease to be, period. This leads to another point. To judge the worth of existence after God has restored all things based on what we experience now is the height of stupidity."
RDB – True. So what's the incentive to being a Christian, in terms of the afterlife?"
AJS – "Ha - incentive. Economic beasts, aren't we? Two things i would say:
1. It is not 'incentive' we experience primarily, like working out Pascal's wager, but rather the sense of 'call', or 'being shaped' by the story of Christianity and God and the world. We are, as it were, drawn in against our will.
2. Part of that story is that what we experience now is a huge degradation of what life and experience and joy ought to be. As we are drawn into it, we want to live in hope of this betterment to come, and we find ourselves wanting this not only for ourselves, but for all those around us as well (and for the creation as a whole). In other words, the story matches and awakens our sense that 'things are not what they ought to be'."
RDB – "Well all this talk adds weight to my theory that the popular concept of religion as an insurance policy for the afterlife is a load of crap."
AJS – "I agree. So, if we are to speak on 'incentives' at all, it is a rather more positive and hopeful thing than an insurance policy against hell."
RDB – "Well that’s where my logic was going to. Nice when that happens."
And, as Neitszche would say: —.